+1 YouCan'tHandleTheTruth

OK. Yeah we play so often that I recognize him anywhere. Actually one game it was a bit difficult so I started referring to the other players as "fine Sir" (inside joke) but my buddy would always respond by "Righteo"... so yeah I guessed it was him.

That's good then. I never allied with him because I like him, it was all purely strategic. Every time I do it (actually and with another friend... we normally do a 3-person game strategy to guarantee victory, but that's another story)... but I do it for no other reason that when I do it with them I am able to get a 3-way draw every single time and boost my rating. Nothing to do with liking or hating anybody.

...wut? Did I get that right? You ally with them and play for the set three-way draw?

I would suggest that using inside jokes, and specifically recognizable phrases such as "Fine Sir" and "Righteo" constitutes a breach of the rules of the anonymous game. You cannot use code words, knowing that it clearly signals your identity to your buddy. It's also not okay in any Dip game to be forming three player alliances based upon your off board friendships.

"Every time I do it (actually and with another friend... we normally do a 3-person game strategy to guarantee victory, but that's another story)... but I do it for no other reason that when I do it with them I am able to get a 3-way draw every single time and boost my rating. "

That sounds like cheating.

Given this additional information:

+1 RUFFHAUS 8 and Devonian

Yeah, that is cheating. if you always ally with two other players and play for the draw, then the rest of the players are playing at a disadvantage.

Oh, and, it does involve liking them. You just called them "friends". Do you know them in real life?

I play with people I generally like a D are online friends, but I'll either ally or attack based on the game at that moment. Ask Krellin how many times I've stabbed him either here or on the other site, yet in PMs, we have become good friends. But if I always allied and never attacked or stabbed, that would be cheating Because the reason was friendship.

This sounds more like you have some key phrases you both know will identify you and have an agreement outside the game to ally and that is metagaming.

Upon second thought it was probably just subconscious. I think I was just joking to the other players with the Good Sir. That is just something I might say. But I guess it inadvertently resulted in me recognizing my buddy when he responded righteo.

Also the allying has nothing to do with friendship. Just based off past performance and reputation. I know they are reliable to get a 3-way draw. Nothing to do with friendship. If I thought I had a high chance of getting a 3-way draw with other players, I would.

"Every time I do it (actually and with another friend... we normally do a 3-person game strategy to guarantee victory"

Still sounds like it is cheating.

Does to me too. When you consistently ally with the same players and never stab, then you have an unwritten agreement and are metagaming. it's bad enough you aren't playing for the ein, but three always acting as one is cheating.

So now I have to go for the win? What is better, know people who are reliably perform 3-ways and regularly partake or just try to rub one off solo? With solos you might spend 7 games before you finally get off one victory. But you get a reputation for bending a little and accepting something less than your wild dreams and you have a good chance of getting a draw.

And think about game theory. If you have a few people in the game who always try to solo and a few people who always go for the draw, what will happen? The soloists will fight each other allowing the drawers to pick them off and score another draw.

So I think it is not only that your outcomes are less random and more predictable with draws, but it also results in better outcomes on average.

The soloists will always loose because you and two others are cheating. It's called meta-gaming. Were the other players even aware of your friendship?

There is nothing wrong with going for a draw. But, if you are basing your alliances on friendship outside the game, its cheating.

If you play on this site, please do not invite them to play in the same game as you. That would be the best way to avoid problems. Or if you must, you should disclose it at the onset of the game to the other players. Or, if it is an anonymous game, and a "code word" reveal that you are friends, please announce it in the global chat for the game.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by friend. I don't mean a friend in real life. Actually it wasn't even on this website to be honest. But on another diplomacy site I started seeing the same users in a few games who would draw often so naturally I would trust them with the draw. And I was successful with that. So I stuck with it. And built up a handsome sum of points. Again, not friends in real life, not drawing because I like them or anything. Just doing it purely for points because it was an effective strategy that worked and kept working. Based purely on their reputation and my past success with allying with them.

OK I am getting the feeling like this behavior may not be condoned here, so let me propose something else. How about me and my new reliable buddies (if I find some on this site) just ally until we eliminate one or two players... or for some set number of turns. Then everyman for himself. Then it will no longer be a guarantee that I improve my points. If we only do every man for himself after 2 eliminations then my chance of winning is like one in five or something.

This feels like quality trolling.

This does feel like trolling. But, I'll respond anyway.

No! A little cheating is still cheating.

Indeed.
I was wondering why you guys were feeding the troll...

I realize this might have gotten out of hand, but I would like some clarification.
I am a fairly fresh player here, and so, not yet known in this community. However, I don't stab. Ever. That is an oddity for this game, and I imagine if I keep playing as much as I would like, I might garner a bit of a reputation for that. Are you saying that, if i develop such a relationship, it will be against the rules for anyone to ally with me because they know I don't stab?


gameID=23210

Please disregard that Game ID.

No, Caerus, it is fine for both them and you. If, however, you develop an online friendship with one or two and find yourself in a lot of games with them as allies or even join games knowing the group is in it and will be an automatic alliance before the game begin s, that is crossing the line.

It wasn't really an automatic alliance. Here let me tell you the details. This was a really small private diplomacy site with only ten regular users. 4 of us would always draw, then a few would sometimes draw and a few would never draw. When I joined games I would who of us drawers was in the game. Naturally I would ally with them and take out the others. But there was no guarantee. I remember one or two went on vacation then I only had one guy to ally with and we lost. Even though we were united with a permanent alliance against a group of individuals we lost. I think those guys do not necessarily draw made temporary alliances not to mention we got stuck with Italy and Austria.

Anyway nothing automatic, that's for sure.

If you based the alliance on figuring out your past buddies, its cheating. You and your friends should make a realistic effort to not seek each other out.

But aside from that, you should learn to win with any opponent or draw with any ally, not simply looking for the easy way to boost rating. Any rating system is fictitious if you cheat. And what you seem to be describing, sounds a lot like cheating.

Caerus, its perfectly fine for you to avoid stabbing. But, to use it as a means of building predetermined alliances, it's not OK. I think Marlens problem is that because it is such a small site, they automatically turn into predetermined alliances. Personally, I avoid lying at all costs, which is also an oddity. But, I always play anonymous games (except 1v1 games) and try to vary my play style enough to conceal who I might be.

OK but would I be required to forget the fact that those 4 people are 100% reliable for draws? Or should I forget that those other people stab all the time? Should I just take the lower chance of success by allying with an unreliable user rather than go with people I can trust just to avoid looking like a cheater?

I though you were playing anonymous games.

Marlen, it is obvious you are now trolling, but it is simple. Do you enter games knowing these people will be in them and knowing you will ally with them from the start? Yes: Cheating. No: not cheating.

If you *happen* to find yourself in one with them, it is fine to ally with them. If you go into the game knowing they are in it and knowing you will have an alliance then you are metagaming.

As they say in old Czecho, "The truth will set you free." LOL

Old Slavic, or church Cyrillic saying. At Pentecost you can say it in any language - and claim you're "inspired." Or inspirited.
On Whitmonday, the day after Xns observe Pentecost, the French "establishment" would like you to work. And no more long lunches. Napoleon and Josephine gobbled it up in 15 minutes, but the First Consul preferred plain potatoes with onions.
So stab on, Marlen. Any relation to Brando ?

Any relation to Marlon Brando? Don't insult me. I have nothing to do with that goy.

Oops what did I just write? I meant GUY. Honest mistake.

Anyway back to the issue at hand, thanks for everyone with your clarification on this important issue. I will only send PMs inviting friends to games for the sake of advertising the game to get the required 7 players, I will not do it for the sake of alliances. If it just so happens that I end up in a game with trustworthy partners, all the better. But I will be sure to keep everything legal and separate. Never any specific requests for predetermined alliances. I think this will mean I am clean in the eyes of the law.

Here's a random etiquette posting based on 2 games I'm in relating to Gunboat.

1. If you're going to be off the radar please vote 'Extend' & not pause. People are generally very reluctant to universally vote a pause.
2. If you see someone vote Extend, please do the right thing and get behind it.

I had to go away last weekend where there was no internet whatsoever, put in an extend and while some put in extend votes, others didn't... Dare I say for game advantage.

Not cool guys.

Marlen says, "Any relation to Marlon Brando? Don't insult me. I have nothing to do with that goy."

This guy isn't a troll. As Boromir might say, "They have a cave troll."

Mr. Ambassador, I think that you're on to something with the pause vs. extend feature. Pause is really something that should be an administrative/moderator function as opposed to a voted upon on/off switch.

I also think that we as a community can help ourselves get to point #2 is we embrace a follow on point #3 (Do not abuse the extend request feature, using it as a diplomatic tool). Usually a stated reason is sufficient to convince most players. Obviously this is not possible in a gunboat game, but if we can get to a point where we trust each other not to manipulate the feature, then I expect we can get necessary extensions even in gunboat games.

If you play here long enough, you will encounter people over and over again. Personally, I never know who I will ally with based simply on the names, it is always dependent upon what works best for the country I control. That being said, are there people here who I tend to 'trust' more than others. Yep. But only as far as I can throw them! ;-) The key is to make the alliance as useful for them as it is for you. Diplomacy can be used even when stabbing to ensure the stabee knows it is simply for strategic reasons, then they are less likely hold a grudge. Everyone here is human (I assume) so its natural to get miffed if someone pulls an extremely egregious stab on you. But each game is its own, your best friend from last could be your biggest threat in the new. Going in knowing who you are going to work with is just not fair to the other players. Regarding finding out who it is in an anonymous game, it depends on WHEN they figure it out. At the beginning, that is a problem. Toward the end-game and they were working together already, not so much.
Integrity is the key to both situations being discussed. With the extend question, it is very easy for someone to notice the request, hold off in hopes it will not work, then attack in expectation that the orders will not be in for that player. There are going to be some that do that. Technically, it is not cheating. But it is still not something a person with integrity would do. Eventually others will notice though. And you don't want to get a bad rep on here. For those who have allied with me in the past, you know I could keep going on and on, this is a short message for me.